I've noticed strange behavior on outline lists. I don't know if this is a feature or a bug, and I apologize if someone else has already reported this.
If I place a lower level outline item BEFORE the first use of a higher level item, then my first use of the higher level item is is numbered 2, not 1. I've attached a file showing the behavior. I used one of Atlantis' preformatted lists, but the behavior is the same whether I use a preformatted list or one of my own creation.
It becomes important if I want to write a book. I want to have my first outline level be for Chapter titles, but if I put an outline list in my (unnumbered) Introduction, then my first chapter is automatically numbered as Chapter 2 instead of Chapter 1.
Virgil
Strange Outline List Behavior
Strange Outline List Behavior
- Attachments
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- Outline-test.rtf
- (12.11 KiB) Downloaded 661 times
It is not a bug. Just instruct Atlantis to start numbering for level-1 items at 0:
1) click the automatic number of any level-1 item in your document,
2) choose the "Edit list format" toolbar button,
3) specify "0" in the "Start at" box,
4) click the "OK" button.
1) click the automatic number of any level-1 item in your document,
2) choose the "Edit list format" toolbar button,
3) specify "0" in the "Start at" box,
4) click the "OK" button.
Last edited by admin on Mon May 13, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Virgil,
“Outline lists” are by definition “hierarchical lists”, which implies that you cannot subvert their natural order. In other words, you cannot have a “level 1” item coming after level 2, 3 and 4 of the same list. The correct order is always 1,2,3,4 in succession. But as Admin pointed out, you can start an outline list from 0. This solves your numbering problem.
But even then, your test file might no be built in the most practical way.
I have modified your test file so that:
1. “Introduction” is the automatic text associated with the Heading 1 style. This is because the Heading 1 style is part of an outline list controlled precisely by the document Heading styles. Applying the Heading 1 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “introduction” before that paragraph. Applying the Heading 2 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Applying the Heading 3 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Sub-Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Applying the Heading 4 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Sub-sub-Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Of course, you can change all these automatic texts as suitable (change the list properties of the target style).
Note that using Heading styles in such a way has the added advantage that Atlantis automatically includes all the associated texts within the document TOC (as is visible in the modified test file).
2. The document introductory part itself has its own outline list (if necessary).
Please see attachment (“Outline-test _modified_.rtf”).
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
“Outline lists” are by definition “hierarchical lists”, which implies that you cannot subvert their natural order. In other words, you cannot have a “level 1” item coming after level 2, 3 and 4 of the same list. The correct order is always 1,2,3,4 in succession. But as Admin pointed out, you can start an outline list from 0. This solves your numbering problem.
But even then, your test file might no be built in the most practical way.
I have modified your test file so that:
1. “Introduction” is the automatic text associated with the Heading 1 style. This is because the Heading 1 style is part of an outline list controlled precisely by the document Heading styles. Applying the Heading 1 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “introduction” before that paragraph. Applying the Heading 2 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Applying the Heading 3 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Sub-Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Applying the Heading 4 style to a paragraph automatically inserts “Sub-sub-Chapter” before that paragraph along with the appropriate number. Of course, you can change all these automatic texts as suitable (change the list properties of the target style).
Note that using Heading styles in such a way has the added advantage that Atlantis automatically includes all the associated texts within the document TOC (as is visible in the modified test file).
2. The document introductory part itself has its own outline list (if necessary).
Please see attachment (“Outline-test _modified_.rtf”).
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
- Attachments
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- Outline-test_modified_.rtf
- (21.18 KiB) Downloaded 625 times
Robert,
Thank you for your suggestion.
I had actually been working with Heading 1, etc. when I noticed the behavior. No matter how I arranged my hierarchy (Heading 1 as Introduction or Heading 1 as Chapter), I kept getting Chapter 2 in my first use of my Chapter heading if there was any lower outline level before Chapter 1. But, I had placed all my sub-outlines in the same outline list hierarchy, so I had
Heading 1 (unnumbered Introduction) -- Outline Level 1
1. Outline level 3
2. Outline level 4
Heading 2 (Numbered Chapter) -- Outline Level 2
My Chapter was always shown as Chapter 2, and it was because I placed Outline Levels 3 and 4 before it.
If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting having two outline lists -- one for my Headings and one for my main text.
I think that only works if the secondary outline list is created manually instead of with paragraph styles. If you create the secondary list using styles (which I prefer to do), the outlines won't restart after Heading 2 (Chapter) since the Heading outline style list is separate from the secondary outline style list. You'll get the following:
Heading 1 (unnumbered Introduction) Heading Outline Level 1
A. Text outline Level 1 (created with a style controlled list)
B. Text outline Level 1
Heading 2 (Numbered Heading Outline Level 2, properly numbered as Chapter 1)
C. Text outline Level 1 (since there is no "higher level" it's not renumbered as A)
D. Text outline Level 1
See the attached modified, modified file. I've kept your Heading outline list and created a secondary style outline list.
I think renumbering the Chapter style to 0 may be the only way to work it if all of the outline styles are in the same outline list. But in my mind, it's a workaround. Since I like to control everything with paragraph styles, I'd like to have style and outline lists that are easily applied in a wide range of documents. I don't like the idea that in some documents I'll have to change my Chapter style to 0 and in others, keep it at 1 depending on what I happen to place before it. To me, it would simply be better for the first use of a given outline level to always display "1" or "A" or whatever is the first increment of that given level.
(For what it's worth OpenOffice and LibreOffice do it as I am suggesting here. The first use of a given level always starts at the first number or letter.)
Thanks again to you and the admin for at least helping me understand Atlantis' understanding of this feature.
Virgil
Thank you for your suggestion.
I had actually been working with Heading 1, etc. when I noticed the behavior. No matter how I arranged my hierarchy (Heading 1 as Introduction or Heading 1 as Chapter), I kept getting Chapter 2 in my first use of my Chapter heading if there was any lower outline level before Chapter 1. But, I had placed all my sub-outlines in the same outline list hierarchy, so I had
Heading 1 (unnumbered Introduction) -- Outline Level 1
1. Outline level 3
2. Outline level 4
Heading 2 (Numbered Chapter) -- Outline Level 2
My Chapter was always shown as Chapter 2, and it was because I placed Outline Levels 3 and 4 before it.
If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting having two outline lists -- one for my Headings and one for my main text.
I think that only works if the secondary outline list is created manually instead of with paragraph styles. If you create the secondary list using styles (which I prefer to do), the outlines won't restart after Heading 2 (Chapter) since the Heading outline style list is separate from the secondary outline style list. You'll get the following:
Heading 1 (unnumbered Introduction) Heading Outline Level 1
A. Text outline Level 1 (created with a style controlled list)
B. Text outline Level 1
Heading 2 (Numbered Heading Outline Level 2, properly numbered as Chapter 1)
C. Text outline Level 1 (since there is no "higher level" it's not renumbered as A)
D. Text outline Level 1
See the attached modified, modified file. I've kept your Heading outline list and created a secondary style outline list.
I think renumbering the Chapter style to 0 may be the only way to work it if all of the outline styles are in the same outline list. But in my mind, it's a workaround. Since I like to control everything with paragraph styles, I'd like to have style and outline lists that are easily applied in a wide range of documents. I don't like the idea that in some documents I'll have to change my Chapter style to 0 and in others, keep it at 1 depending on what I happen to place before it. To me, it would simply be better for the first use of a given outline level to always display "1" or "A" or whatever is the first increment of that given level.
(For what it's worth OpenOffice and LibreOffice do it as I am suggesting here. The first use of a given level always starts at the first number or letter.)
Thanks again to you and the admin for at least helping me understand Atlantis' understanding of this feature.
Virgil
- Attachments
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- Outline-test_modified_2.rtf
- (9.26 KiB) Downloaded 630 times
Virgil,
Atlantis behaves like MS Word in this respect.
I don’t understand how you could have the first use of a given outline level to always display "1" or "A", and still have an unnumbered first item when you need one. In such a case, the next item is bound to be shown as item number 2. A single (outline) list cannot have 2 number 1 items. There has to be some way you can tell the word processor that the first item must remain unnumbered. Giving it level 0 is one of them. But you can also use an unnumbered “textual” Heading 1 style for first level headings that you want unnumbered. And use numbered Heading 2/3/4 styles for the other levels of the same outline list. Please see attached test document (“Outline-test_modified_3.rtf”).
Note that in such cases, the Heading 1 style can be without any “numbering” text. Instead of assigning “Introduction” to it, you can leave the text part blank, and enter any suitable text directly in the document window (“foreword”, “preface”, “introduction”, for example).
Also note that OpenOffice.org Writer 3.3.0 does not display “Outline-test_modified_3.rtf” correctly: the text of the first item (Heading 1 style) is not displayed (“Introduction” is cut off). It seems OpenOffice.org Writer does not have that “textual” option for numbered items.
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
Atlantis behaves like MS Word in this respect.
I don’t understand how you could have the first use of a given outline level to always display "1" or "A", and still have an unnumbered first item when you need one. In such a case, the next item is bound to be shown as item number 2. A single (outline) list cannot have 2 number 1 items. There has to be some way you can tell the word processor that the first item must remain unnumbered. Giving it level 0 is one of them. But you can also use an unnumbered “textual” Heading 1 style for first level headings that you want unnumbered. And use numbered Heading 2/3/4 styles for the other levels of the same outline list. Please see attached test document (“Outline-test_modified_3.rtf”).
Note that in such cases, the Heading 1 style can be without any “numbering” text. Instead of assigning “Introduction” to it, you can leave the text part blank, and enter any suitable text directly in the document window (“foreword”, “preface”, “introduction”, for example).
Also note that OpenOffice.org Writer 3.3.0 does not display “Outline-test_modified_3.rtf” correctly: the text of the first item (Heading 1 style) is not displayed (“Introduction” is cut off). It seems OpenOffice.org Writer does not have that “textual” option for numbered items.
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
- Attachments
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- Outline-test_modified_3.rtf
- (6.85 KiB) Downloaded 636 times
Robert,
I didn't explain myself very well. I agree that you can't have Chapter 1 follow an unnumbered "textual" Introduction if they are both Heading 1. But, if the "Introduction" is Heading 1 and "Chapter" is Heading 2, as you have put it in your modified document, then the first use of Heading 2 should always be "1" no matter what comes before it.
And, your file only works because you have not put any subordinate outline item between Introduction and Chapter. If I put your Heading 3 between Heading 1 and Heading 2, (which I may often want to do in a real document) then my Chapter suddenly (and wrongly) becomes Chapter 2 (see attached modified-4 file).
As for Open/LibreOffice's treatment of your file, I think it's only in the RTF conversion. I have no problem creating unnumbered "textual" outline styles with OOo. And, when I do, the next (lower) chapter style is properly numbered "1" even if I have a subordinate level item appearing before it.
It seems to me that software should address the way people actually work. I can't imagine anyone actually wanting the result that is in my current attachment, i.e.
Introduction (Heading 1)
A. (Heading 3)
B. (Heading 3)
Chapter 2 (Heading 2)
If such a result is never wanted (and I realize that such a statement is way too broad), then why would the software produce it? It's no answer to say, "That's the way Word does it." Atlantis deviates from the Word standard in many ways, and I for one am very happy it does.
As I see it, the only thing that should cause Heading 2 to display "Chapter 2" would be a prior instance of Heading 2.
Thanks again for your interest in this topic.
Virgil
I didn't explain myself very well. I agree that you can't have Chapter 1 follow an unnumbered "textual" Introduction if they are both Heading 1. But, if the "Introduction" is Heading 1 and "Chapter" is Heading 2, as you have put it in your modified document, then the first use of Heading 2 should always be "1" no matter what comes before it.
And, your file only works because you have not put any subordinate outline item between Introduction and Chapter. If I put your Heading 3 between Heading 1 and Heading 2, (which I may often want to do in a real document) then my Chapter suddenly (and wrongly) becomes Chapter 2 (see attached modified-4 file).
As for Open/LibreOffice's treatment of your file, I think it's only in the RTF conversion. I have no problem creating unnumbered "textual" outline styles with OOo. And, when I do, the next (lower) chapter style is properly numbered "1" even if I have a subordinate level item appearing before it.
It seems to me that software should address the way people actually work. I can't imagine anyone actually wanting the result that is in my current attachment, i.e.
Introduction (Heading 1)
A. (Heading 3)
B. (Heading 3)
Chapter 2 (Heading 2)
If such a result is never wanted (and I realize that such a statement is way too broad), then why would the software produce it? It's no answer to say, "That's the way Word does it." Atlantis deviates from the Word standard in many ways, and I for one am very happy it does.
As I see it, the only thing that should cause Heading 2 to display "Chapter 2" would be a prior instance of Heading 2.
Thanks again for your interest in this topic.
Virgil
- Attachments
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- Outline-test_modified_4.rtf
- (7.25 KiB) Downloaded 644 times
Virgil,
I see what you mean more clearly now. I also can see the practical use of your “feature request”.
But in a way, what you’re asking for, is the ability to build a house of cards where, for example, level 2 is missing between level 1 and level 3. It is simply impossible!
As a general rule, it is most unusual to see hierarchic lists without at least one item for each intermediate level. You normally cannot have a third level in an outline if level 2 is missing. In other words, the hierarchic structure must remain visible. This is why the indenting is traditionally increased with each new list level.
As things stand, I am afraid that you will have to make the items formatted with your Heading 2 style start at 0. Please see attached “Outline-test_modified_5.rtf”.
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
I see what you mean more clearly now. I also can see the practical use of your “feature request”.
But in a way, what you’re asking for, is the ability to build a house of cards where, for example, level 2 is missing between level 1 and level 3. It is simply impossible!
As a general rule, it is most unusual to see hierarchic lists without at least one item for each intermediate level. You normally cannot have a third level in an outline if level 2 is missing. In other words, the hierarchic structure must remain visible. This is why the indenting is traditionally increased with each new list level.
As things stand, I am afraid that you will have to make the items formatted with your Heading 2 style start at 0. Please see attached “Outline-test_modified_5.rtf”.
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert
- Attachments
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- Outline-test_modified_5.rtf
- (7.3 KiB) Downloaded 636 times
Thanks again for all your help.
I'll follow your suggestion to reset my Heading 2 style to "0" It works as a solution, although not the solution I would prefer.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that my "feature request" is impossible. It's the way OpenOffice and LibreOffice do it, so it can be done. But I can understand if the Atlantis developers don't want to implement it.
Thanks again.
Virgil
I'll follow your suggestion to reset my Heading 2 style to "0" It works as a solution, although not the solution I would prefer.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that my "feature request" is impossible. It's the way OpenOffice and LibreOffice do it, so it can be done. But I can understand if the Atlantis developers don't want to implement it.
Thanks again.
Virgil