Autocorrect Close Quote After Dash

[mikespeir]

I have an annoying problem. I have Autocorrect convert two hyphens to a dash. The problem comes when that dash comes at the end of quoted material, like so:

"Blah, blah blah--"

Using smart quotes, the final quote is turned into an open quote rather than a close quote. It becomes this:

“Blah, blah blah–“

I don't understand why. I've tried using Autocorrect to force the close quote instead, but with no luck. Apparently, the "Replace/With" fields in Autocorrect Options won't allow the entry of smart quotes, so it assumes that what I've entered are dumb quotes, which Atlantis is then free to convert (incorrectly) later as it sees fit.

Is there a workaround for this?

[Robert]

Hi ,
It seems that you have found an AutoCorrect bug.
Until it is fixed, you could do the following:

Type full quote marks first (one after the other),
Move the insertion point back within the quote marks,
Type your text plus the two hyphens,
Move the insertion point forward out of the quote marks,
Type a space character. Go on typing.

HTH.
Cheers,
Robert

[mikespeir]

Thanks. I assume it'll be fixed in the next release.

It's interesting that Word does the same thing: puts an open quote after a dash. I never understood why, but the commonality with Atlantis suggests there really is a reason.

[admin]

Sorry, but it is not a bug. An opening quote character is suggested after a dash because quoted text is not supposed to be terminated with a dash. Dashes are supposed to have text "before" and "after", except cases when they serve as "bullets".

If you need a closing quote after a dash, just type an extra letter (for instance, "a") after the dash, then type a quote character, then delete that extra character.

[mikespeir]

An opening quote character is suggested after a dash because quoted text is not supposed to be terminated with a dash.

Not to be difficult, but I beg to differ. When writing dialogue, if the speaker is cut off before finishing the thought, you write a close quote after the dash. (No preceding or following punctuation.) This need be followed by nothing but a new line. (Besides, if you've already got an open quote, I can't imagine why you would want to follow with another. Nested quotes change from double to single, or vice versa.) It seems that at least there ought to be a provision for making this happen without having to reverse course to correct every time.

[Robert]

Hi Mike,
As you noticed, the same is happening in MS Word. There seems to be some programmatic difficulty here.
Now here is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash:

“The em dash (—), or m dash, m-rule, etc., often demarcates a parenthetical thought—like this one—or some similar interpolation.
It is also used to indicate that a sentence is unfinished because the speaker has been interrupted. Similarly, it can be used instead of an ellipsis to indicate aposiopesis, the rhetorical device by which a sentence is stopped short not because of interruption but because the speaker is too emotional to continue, such as Darth Vader's line "I sense something; a presence I have not felt since—" in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.”

So as I understand things you should be using an “m” or “long” dash in your texts to indicate “aposiopesis”; and not an “n” dash. Accordingly, the Atlantis AutoCorrect won’t help you here. At best, it would substitute two dash characters with an “n” dash, not with an “m” dash.

Here is what I can suggest:
1. Switch AutoCorrect As-You-Type on if it isn’t already.
2. Type two quote marks. Atlantis will automatically change them into their “curly” type.
3. Place the insertion point within the two quote marks.
4. Press “Ctrl+Alt+Hyphen” to insert a long dash.
5. Select the end of the typed sequence (long dash + curly closing quote mark).
6. Right-click and save the selection as a Clip Library item. Name it “aposiopesis” for example.
7. Whenever you want to indicate “aposiopesis” in a text, double-click the corresponding Clip Library item.

Note. If this is too much of a hassle, you could use an ellipsis instead of a long dash in such cases. The ellipsis would have almost the same effect on the reader.
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert

[admin]

When writing dialogue, if the speaker is cut off before finishing the thought, you write a close quote after the dash.

Some use dashes in this way indeed. But many use ellipses because a dash means "to be continued" not "terminated".

Anyway checking for an opening quote is a good idea in cases with dashes followed by quote characters too. The upcoming version of Atlantis Word Processor will do this. Things will work in the way you want.

Thanks for your post.

[mikespeir]

Robert,

Yeah, I'm using M dashes. (Although I realize the example in my initial post had N dashes.)

I appreciate the suggestion. For me, it's easier to just type ALT+0151 or copy and paste a close quote.

[mikespeir]

Admin,

Well, the "proper" way to have an abruptly cut-off quote is with an M dash. Ellipses imply, true enough, that the thought wasn't finished, but with the voice trailing off without interruption, sort-of of the speaker's own accord.

Thanks for your consideration in making the change. I'm wondering if there shouldn't be a way to encode special characters in AutoCorrect, though. It doesn't seem to allow ALT key combinations. For example, if I try to enter an ALT+0151, it simply substitutes a plain quote in the field. Allowing such things might be handy in a number of ways.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I'm really liking Atlantis. Can't imagine going back to Word.

[Robert]

For the record, “Alt+0151” is for the long dash. The code for a curly closing quote is “Alt+0148”.

[mikespeir]

Robert,

You're right, of course. Wasn't thinking.

[Robert]

Hi Mike,
I found a way to make AutoCorrect insert a sequence “long dash+curly quote” correctly.
You only have to create two “Replace With” entries:
First entry) Replace: -*- (dash+asterisk+dash) With: <Alt+0151><Alt+0148> (long dash+closing curly quote)
Second entry) Replace: <Alt+0151><Alt+0148><Alt+0148> (long dash+double closing curly quotes) With: <Alt+0151><Alt+0148> (long dash+single closing curly quote)

Of course, you can use any sequence instead of -*-. The aim is to use a sequence that you are unlikely to type for any other purpose than the present one.
When these AutoCorrect entries have been created and saved, if you type
“blah, blah, blah-*-
Atlantis will automatically auto-correct it to
“blah, blah, blah—”
HTH.
Cheers,
Robert

[admin]

if I try to enter an ALT+0151, it simply substitutes a plain quote in the field.

A curly ("smart") quote is inserted in the field. But the problem is that the straight quote and curly quotes look identically under smaller font sizes of Arial (this font face is used in the "Replace With" box of the "Tools | AutoCorrect Options..." of Atlantis).

[admin]

Note that you could use the "Character map" button next to the "With" edit box of the "AutoCorrect Options" dialog to insert various characters not available directly through the keyboard.

[mikespeir]

Note that you could use the "Character map" button next to the "With" edit box of the "AutoCorrect Options" dialog to insert various characters not available directly through the keyboard.

Well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I had actually tried that. When I selected curly quotes it converted them to plain quotes when it updated the field.[/i]

[admin]

As I said above, nothing gets converted. Simply the edit box displays both straight and curly quotes in the same way - this is how the Arial font face work. But this will not affect how things work in the document window.

[Robert]

I had actually tried that. When I selected curly quotes it converted them to plain quotes when it updated the field.

Hi Mike,
I have tried entering the ALT Codes directly into the “AutoCorrect” dialog “Replace” and “Replace With” fields. It works. The inserted characters might not look quite right in the entry boxes but they are actually as intended. Simply use any appropriate ALT codes and save your “Replace With” changes. Don't pay any attention to their "looks".
Cheers,
Robert

[mikespeir]

Robert,

It may be that I was misled by the appearance, as you suggest. The problem is that it didn't have the desired result, anyway. The end quote still came out wrong, which, I suspect, is due to Atlantis' overriding internal coding. I'll just live with the problem for now. Maybe it'll clear up in future releases.

[mikespeir]

Admin,

Sorry I overlooked your latest reply. As I told Robert, I can live with the problem for now. I was just hoping there might be some convenient way to deal with the problem. It's certainly not a killer.

Thanks for the help.

[Robert]

The problem is that it didn't have the desired result, anyway. The end quote still came out wrong, which, I suspect, is due to Atlantis' overriding internal coding.

The method I described works on my system (XP SP3). It should work on your system too. Simply create and add the two “Replace With” entries using the ALT codes as explained above.